Zoom Meeting
Tue. Jun 27, 2023

Not a perfect transcript... so bear with us if you read this...

1:26 - Phil Rose
I'm Phil Rose, your host, and today I'm joined by the lovely Amanda I've been working with Amanda as a copywriter for a number of months now, and it may be longer than that actually. She'd written some amazing copy for us at Ignium. And I realized actually having read the book, who? Not how I realize actually find someone who's better equipped to do the things that I love doing but actually could do better if I found someone else. And that's why I found Amanda through Kerry Jarred.

1:54 - Phil Rose
So Amanda calls herself a copywriter and a coach, but I'd love to 1st welcome in to find out what does copywriting coach really mean to Amanda. Welcome Come the Sparks Baconing and Podcast.

2:04 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Thank you. I'm really happy to be talking to is.

2:07 - Phil Rose
and you know it's always very strange because oviously have our calls on a Monday morning and you talk to me and you question me about things that we can, about what you do, so it's roll the reverse. So before we were talking today, you talked about how do you describe yourself? And you said in a business, in business you're a writer, what does that actually mean for you?

2:22 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
It means so many different things. I mean copy can be anything from the instructions you get with your kettle to, to, you know, whatever you read on the internet. And so what I do is is actually far more than writing those words. There's an awful lott of work that goes on before the words happen. I spent quite some time working in branding and brand language, which is I have to start with that whenever I start work with anybody. Because how can you tell someone's story if you don't know what it is?

2:52 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
So, so yeah, there's a great deal of coaching and work that goes on before I can write anything. And then, yeah, then then we write the words, we write, we write the website copy or. We write the social media or we write the emails,

3:19 - Phil Rose
Okay.

3:20 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
but the words turn up. But it's almost like the tip of the iceberg. There's always everything else that goes on below the surface as well.

3:28 - Phil Rose
And it's interesting because you're right, we see the words and I've never thought about copy being, you know, the copy of how to, how to work your kettle or your, your fridge, but actually that's copy or someone has had to think through those words to come up with something that makes sense to. So the average human being is going to be utilizing that appliance. And obviously from my perspective. Employ your services because you're good at writing stuff and you question me and you put out conversations and I know that one of the reasons I wanted to get you on the podcast is because I've noticed that over time you're very good at just asking me questions and from that you then write together, you put words on paper that make sense to me.

4:06 - Phil Rose
So you some, in some ways I think you simplify what I'm thinking about and make it compelling.

4:12 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Yes, there's a, that's a huge element of any copywriting, and I've worked Alongside so many copywriters now and that's exactly what we do we can take sometimes you can have fifty words on a page and they will have come from four thousand words of concept so There's, like I said, there's a massive amount of work that goes on before those few words are, are written and home down, chiseled away, processed, reordered. There's a of that work that goes on beforehand. But there's also this, like you said, there's this, how do you know what the answers unless already the question?

4:49 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
So. Sometimes you have to do this deep dive with people. What really is your message, What is it that you really want to say, and who are the people you want to with?

4:58 - Phil Rose
I think it's interesting that deep dive because you know, you and I have talked about a core customer and delivering workshop on it tomorrow morning. But core customer is one of the things. You have to a bit of a bit of work on that to out who are you selling to in the 1st place, or should I rephrase that, who you marketing to in the place? And I come back to one of the Phrases I heard from someone I worked with 20 plus years ago, and he said the point of marketing is to make sales superfluous.

5:23 - Phil Rose
That's interesting when you look at that in terms. If you get great marketing, people just want to buy. So I wonder who are the people that buy what you sell. I copy Who do you sell it to?

5:36 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
I spent years working in corporate, so I've written for. All sectors across the board. Now my core client base are coaches, therapists, healers and that's everybody from people who work in uh,

5:49 - Phil Rose
Okay.

5:55 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
you know, high level leadership, coaching, all the way through to, I work with energy healers as well. So everybody from from one end of the spectrum to the other, the thing that brings them all together, is that they've all been through some kind of journey and they're now using that vulnerability help others. Help them to heal, help them to refocus, help them over a threshold in their life, direct them from whatever crossroads they've reached. And it's making sure that they're reaching out with the correct energy.

6:32 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
So those are the people that I work with and a lot of them are quite vulnerable themselves. So you know, to be conscious of that. Whatever their superpower is, it lies in that vulnerability. So yeah.

6:45 - Phil Rose
And it's interesting, isn't it? Because the bit that comes out for me is that you said they're a crossroads. To enable them to get to where they need to go, they've had to obviously go through some journeys themselves, but they've also got to be quite vulnerable in their own copy, their content they're putting out there, so people will connect with them. So how do you do that with people? Because obviously that's quite a tough gig in some ways, getting people to open up and then for you to put on paper as well.

7:14 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Sometimes it takes a long time, sometimes it takes months. A month, a month. It's funny actually when I go through a brand language session with someone and it, that takes about an hour and a half, I always joke. I can look at the clock and it usually takes an hour and 20 min for somebody to actually tell me what they do.

7:39 - Phil Rose
Well.

7:40 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
They come up with all the expressions that they've been told to use to express what they do and after an hour and 20 min of really digging deep, they tell me what they do and very often it comes along with a massive emotional release as well. It's not unusual for a client to reach that hour and 20 min and cry,

8:02 - Phil Rose
Well.

8:03 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
and it's, and, and it's a happy thing. It's, it's, it's a real release, and a visibility, it's like, it's like, they say, you know, somebody has seen me and, and so. And that's what we work with. So it's not necessarily about Making uh, people fully visible, you know, their, their wounds and their journey and the things that they don't want to share. But this energy turns up in the words that we use and the stories that we tell. And it's very subliminal, it's, it can be very subtle sometimes, it can be quite, quite strong.

8:40 - Phil Rose
Okay.

8:41 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
But it can come through in a blog, in a podcast, in a conversation. Yeah, these things come through if you allow them to show up.

8:51 - Phil Rose
I think that's really interesting actually. And then I, I haven't watched the clock from a coaching perspective, but I'd love to do that maybe at some stage, just to find out when do real real, the real light bulb moments happen in coaching. An hour and 20 min of people are suddenly get it and there's that outpouring emotion when they suddenly realize somebody's seen me and I think, to be honest, you know, you saying your bio here, copy. Coach It's that coaching element that brings out for people.

9:22 - Phil Rose
So by you ask them questions, they get to a point where they think that's it.

9:26 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Yes.

9:27 - Phil Rose
So they all power to you, all credit to you, to actually enable them to get to that point in their journey, having probably spent long, long time themselves working out what it is. What's the thing you do in that case? You use the word superpower, and I think I know the answer to this before I ask it. But what is your superpower?

9:50 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
It's uh, allowing, as we said, allowing people to show up with themselves. So, it, if somebody's hurting or they're healing, it takes a great deal of courage and bravery to reach out and try and find the right person for them to help them on their journey. And as we said earlier, the teacher will appear when the student is ready and it's making sure that that teacher has fully shown up as themselves. That the pupil can approach them or they can have a conversation or they can start working together.

10:27 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
But it takes a great deal of bravery for that practitioner to show up as themselves. So um, it's making that their energies match, because if their energies don't match,

10:41 - Phil Rose
Yes.

10:42 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
then they're not going to be able to work together. So It's making sure that,

10:45 - Phil Rose
I try.

10:49 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
that those superpowers are not just visible, but somebody has the confidence to put them forward.

10:57 - Phil Rose
I think that's really interesting. And you mentioned a lot of things though, and I think this thing about taking bravery, because actually. Used to say, and I still still have this phrase in my back pockett, that a coach will only go as far with their client as they're willing to go with themselves. And I think that's really powerful because for us coaches do uncover a lot of things, even though may A business coach. I always say that it's the human being that I coach in front of me. We talk about coaching in a number of phases and in fact I talk about box one, box two and box three.

11:32 - Phil Rose
Box one is just the content, it's what's going on for you out there, box two is the content that, sorry, the context that sits behind that content. Box three is where the magic happens box three is the personal values and beliefs that sits it's the personal context and for me I need to work with someone in box one, box two and I need to allow them to step into box three when they're ready. And not everyone wants do that straight away. And those that do get that massive uptick and they say that's the reason I come to coaching.

12:02 - Phil Rose
And box one and box two are surface E. In some ways it would solve the problem in the business, but it won't solve the personal problems that I created it in the 1st place. So I need to get people into box three to really make that transformational shift.

12:15 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
And and I always say that there's there's hundreds of thousands, probably millions of coaches out there. But there's only one like you,

12:26 - Phil Rose
is good point. I with that.

12:29 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
there's only one like you. So what is that about you that people need to find? How dare you keep that brilliance from the world? How dare you.

12:42 - Phil Rose
And J I think that's really powerful, isn't it, how they, you keep your brilliants off. Because I think, you know, you and I talked lot about this, about As coaches, we help people really transform. And the people you're working with that, you know, you said earlier, coaches, therapists, they've been on journey themselves and therefore they've got that super power to help other people. So I think there's a lot to be said for that. How do people go looking for these things? Because obviously you mentioned earlier you worked for a holiday company writing brochures.

13:13 - Phil Rose
So, so in my logic, people would turn up a travel agent now, being online, they would have some idea about what they wanted. How would you go about attracting people to the copy so that if I'm looking for a therapist, I find it at the right time? Using that phrase when the teacher is ready, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. How do you go about creating that?

13:34 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
It's the energy that you turn up with. I always say that I've come from a writing background more than a marketing background. I'm qualified in writing, that's what my degree is in, that's what I've worked in.

13:46 - Phil Rose
Thank you, right.

13:47 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
So the marketing nuts and bolts, I, I'm educated and aware of them and I use them, but I'm, I'm very much, interested in the the workings, the practical workings of writing and energy, and how people read. And I I've always been very interested in attraction marketing and there's an awful lot out there that you can read about the nuts and bolts of attraction marketing,

14:07 - Phil Rose
Play.

14:12 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
but I know that it takes a huge amount of personal investment and personal exposure, I guess really. Vulnerability. It's about gratitude, it's about clarity, it's about human connection, it's about respect, and it's about tuning in, when I say the word respect. A lot of traditional marketing therapy is based around pain points, which I get, I understand. But I work from the point of view that if somebody has a wound, the last thing you want to do is get a stick and have a good poker hand in it.

14:55 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
That's just, that's wrong and you shouldn't be doing it, What we should be doing is, is takes a great deal more personal effort and intuition and connection on your point to look at their pain points and have compassion, because compassion breeds curiosity.

15:17 - Phil Rose
That's interesting.

15:18 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
And that's where you have connection. And I know that we spoke about yesterday that if you've sold somebody something and they open the box and it's a better than what they were expecting, they're delighted they're coming back for more. Because that, that, the experience of delight, of relief, is wonderful. But if they've, you've tricked them into buying something and they open the box and they're disappointed, there's a whole raft of negative feelings coming in there. So what really have you done?

15:50 - Phil Rose
Thank you.

15:51 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
How have you benefited anybody by doing that other than expanding your own bank balance? So um, I don't see that there's any use, there's no winners in that kind of marketing. And and by being more connected in, tuned, intuitive, I just feel like that kind of marketing is, is just, it's good all round, there's no losers.

16:12 - Phil Rose
I love that, I love that being very intu intuitive le me just come back to afraid you said ga gratitude sed human connection, respect and tuning in. I love that in the sense that, well, that's what in your mind attraction marketing's about, because it's about attracting the right people who want that thing at the time and your view. And I've got this mental picture and I'm opening the box up and if it exceeds, it exceeds your expectations. You're delight of what you've gott. And it's not about manipulation it's not about you phrase poking the sticking the rod and twisting it to be front of the phone ironically or cur certainly when I first set up my business in two thousand four I did go on a sales training course and it was all about doing exactly that it was about opening the room of scratching the scab until it bar and then finding the solution A lot of people talk about pay, but I think this key thing about attraction, attracting people to it because they can see that positive.

17:04 - Phil Rose
The bit that goes in my mind is humans are driven by two drivers, the away from and toward motivation. And I think that toward motivation is where I'm hearing you come from, in the sense that people feel that connection,

17:16 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Oh.

17:18 - Phil Rose
they feel your curiosity, and they feel your compassion. And that's what makes them want to be talking and listening and understanding what you're doing more. So there's a real, a combination of that toward I want more of that. But also they're sensing some pain and they're realizing you've gott the solution to it through your writing. So. It's really powerful there, so just tell me about human connection. I think we want to come back to that. In that sense. What do you think's the key thing in that attraction marketing about building that connection?

17:48 - Phil Rose
How do you, how do you connect with your reader because you don't know them?

17:54 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
I always say that there's two things really that a blog or any piece of writing should deliver, and it's a trade off. So somebody has come along and they've taken their time and their energy to read whatever you've written, what are you going to reward them with? I always say that you reward them with two things. You reward them with something practical, something they can take away and something that they can use in their life or their business or whatever to move them forward. The 2nd thing is you reward them with a feeling.

18:28 - Phil Rose
don't balking out on. After that slighted Lude, I completely forgot that the dog was in the room. Everyone else knows those do not disturb me. Ibc, of course, but I forgot the dog was asleep on the sofa. There we go.

18:50 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
That's so funny.

18:52 - Phil Rose
Yeah, she, she's seen something more exciting. So I completely lost track of where we are. It's always funny. One day I'll do, I'll do a list of these out takes and these podcasts and that might be in, you know. Poppy wakes up and starts barking midway through. Let me just recap in that case, and it might just leave that piece in because I think it's quite amusing actually, so human connected. Let's just come back to that. So you're probably throwing you a tracker gof, but where were we.

19:14 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
No, so I was just saying that there's two things that you need to reward,

19:18 - Phil Rose
Yes.

19:18 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
your reader with. They've taken their time and their energy to read whatever you've, you've produced and read or listen, I work with quite a few people who produce podcasts, but there's two things that you should be rewarding them with. The 1st thing is something practical, something that they can take away and they can use either in their life or in their business. Something, even very small that that can transform something that they're doing into something that works better or feels better.

19:48 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
And the 2nd thing you should give them is a feeling So what feeling are you leaving them with? Are they going to feel inspired, encouraged, creative? Are they going to feel innovation are they, are they going to have new ideas, are they going to be curious, are they going to be more compassionate towards others, are they going to see things from a different perspective? So to give them something practical and give them a feeling, and a lot of people will forget what you've written, but they won't forget how you've made them feel.

20:19 - Phil Rose
I I love.

20:20 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
So you're instantly keying into good fields. The time they've clicked onto your website, or they've made an appointment to talk to you, or they've engaged with you in some way. You've already built a relationship. It's already there. They already know you. You do And you've connected through, through their intuition, even through, The feelings, the emotions in their body. You've done it already. You've already started that connection. Them before you've spoken to them.

20:52 - Phil Rose
I love that and I love that, you know, he's the Myer Angela quote that comes out there in terms of people forget what we've told about, you should never forget how you made them feel. And I think that's the key bit there because I think That emotional connection is already key bit and I love your point about giving them to the, giving them the practical key takeaway thing to do, thing with and Leaving the feeling leaving that inspired, encourage, Fortive, but leave the wanting saying and that's the key bit because that's the motivational piece.

21:18 - Phil Rose
And in some ways, you know, that goes back to that, the psychology and the anatomy of the brain, in terms of the way that we're wired, to get that initial connection, you have to be driving towards the emotional center as opposed to the thinking, rational center, because that's what makes that connection come live. So I love that in that sense. So attraction market, let's just come to in that case. You said earlier there's lots of mythologies to follow, and you said your key, your degree, is in writing, because that's what you are, you're a writer at heart, but what is it about?

21:51 - Phil Rose
Attraction Marketing that attracts you in that sense. What, what's the thing that says, yeah, that's why I want to be doing what I'm doing.

21:59 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Feels good. That's it, that's it. That's all there is to it.

22:04 - Phil Rose
What more?

22:04 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
it feels good, it feels good to do business in a good way, That's what feels good. As somebody who hass a history of Trauma, Survival and Recovery. There's a lot in the world for somebody like me to navigate. There are things that I stay away from, there's things that might shock me or surprise me or come up on me. And I'm very conscious of the way we write and the things that we put out there and, and how are we going to have an effect on other people? Do we want to shock them or traumatize them or or hurt them?

22:44 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Do we, do we want is this really what we want to be doing all Particularly in this particular area that I work in, with clients who have their own vulnerabilities, who are reaching out to other people with vulnerabilities, do we actually really want to be marketing like that? In this area because that, that doesn't really feel right for me, so that, that it feels good, that's all I can say. It feels good and Part of it is uh,

23:09 - Phil Rose
I love that. I love that.

23:14 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
as um, Gabriel Bernstein says it's part and parcel of this is putting your good goggles on. And the more good you see, the more good you see, and the more good you do, the more good you do. Why are we not perpetuating that? Because it works. Businesses work that way. There's a good, sound businesss sense for doing business that way, so why are we were doing it more.

23:43 - Phil Rose
I love that and I love that. You know, I've not read any work. Ren Gabrielle Bernstein's work, but you've mentioned a few times, I think that thing about the good we see and the good we do, I think there's a real positive element of that. And especially in a world that on the surface appears people are negatively. Actually, if you look at that good and you do good and I love your friends, you know, straightforward. Why'd you do it? Because it feels good, why wouldn't you do it? Well we, are we doing it?

24:09 - Phil Rose
I think there's so much there, so I think that's a really key thing. The Sparks Wan podcast is all about the word purpose and we talk about people, you know, rekindling their part, rekindling their passion, and we talk about from a businesss perspective. We also talk about the fact that, you know, you can't divorce human from business because we're all running businesses for a reason and then we're the ones out there doing that stuff. What's your purpose? Why does Amanda show up apart from it feels good to do what you do?

24:39 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
I read this wonderful quote a few years Megan Watterson, Which is Where Hass My Love Not Yet Reached? Encompasses. Whereas my story not gone? Where has my talent, my skill set not gone? Where have my connections not gone? Whereas the goodness that my business can do the benefit of my businesss. Where's all these places? Where are all these places that my my talents or my skill set haven't gone? And this is what I apply then to my clients. So their skills and talents? Where have they not gone yet?

25:21 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
What's ahead of them? What who are the people that they could be reaching out to and helping? If only they could turn up as themselves. If only they had the words and the stories to turn up as themselves. If only they had the confidence to say I'm good at this, I'm really good at this, I can help you with this. So they up with the right energy, which comes from their vulnerability, but that takes a lot of bravery and courage. The amount of clients that I've spoken to who've been online and they've looked at other successful coaches or therapists working in their area and they've borrowed their ideas, they've borrowed their words, they've borrowed their vibe, their feeling.

26:05 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
And then I look at their website and I think that's not you. You've you've felt lost in your messaging and yes, it's a wonderful thing to, to pull from other people's ideas if they've been successful. But I look at their websites I go, that's not you. So all that magic that you have is all being hidden in this. This, this maze, this this, this, this, this haze, this fog of otherness. And we needed to clear this away so that the, the brilliance comes through and then So my purpose is to make sure that the hurting and healing people find exactly the person for them and the

26:49 - Phil Rose
Wow, wow, I love that, I love that. So, so there's something there and you use the word haze and I think that's really interesting. What you're helping do is cut through. So that energy of that vulnerability and I've written on my page, you know? They shouting it's me and you're saying it's not you. Do hoping them really be who they are authentically and helping them, which is why when you talked about earlier After an hour and 20 min, they suddenly get it because before they've not realized that's me.

27:18 - Phil Rose
They've been trying to borrow someone else's, but someone else's mask on affected because they think that's the best way to shop for the world. I think that's really, really powerful. No of it. So there's something there about helping them shop fully, authentically and bravely as well.

27:33 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
As themselves. Yeah, that's where the magic is.

27:35 - Phil Rose
Okay, I, I love that. So, so there's a lot that we've just talked about in terms of, you know, the steps take. He and I wonder what's you mentioned at the beginning? You talked about how you go through and help them create their brand in term of their brand language. And you talked about it takes an hour and 20 min. And then you said to me just now and asking you what do people want from attraction? Marke you said some key things, some practical things. So what practical, what practical giveaways would you give away right now to say if you're looking at crafting something for yourself, these are the steps you need to go through?

28:07 - Phil Rose
Could you, could you distill it down into three things? Or is it something that's a bigger podcast in its own right?

28:16 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
There's also this saying in stillness we receive. So there's an awful lot of conflicting messages out there about marketing, about how you should project yourself how your businesss should work. And I'm a massive believer in, in stillness we receive. So when you can slow down and you clear this away. I'm massive fan of stepping away from your desk if you've got any kind of blockage to thought or writing. So whether that's hanging the laundry or walking the dog or prepping dinner or walking to the shop or um, meditation, yoga, moving meditation, tai chi, whatever your bag is, stepping away from your desk helps you because you will get best ideas when you have your trainers on.

29:13 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Out there on the pavement or running through woodland. Then you will sat at your desk. I guarantee that every single time. And if you've got a question that's burning, go out Go outside, that's the only thing I can say. And um, turn up when we're talking about branding and talking about ourselves, ask yourselves, ask yourself what your human benefit is.

29:43 - Phil Rose
Well, okay.

29:44 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
What's your magic source? What are you bringing to the world? What is the human benefit and That needs to show up as a priority on your landing page. That needs to show up as a priority in Any businesss brochure that you write that needs to show up as a priority in your social media that needs to show up as a priority in podcast? It It Your Human benefit Hero Your human benefit. Actual, real human benefit We're talking about sound bites here, we're talking about actual, real, felt human visceral bones, muscles, brains.

30:25 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Everything, hormones, everything. What is the actual human benefit of what you do that shows up?

30:31 - Phil Rose
I love that.

30:32 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Can't go wrong with that.

30:34 - Phil Rose
So those two steps go hand in hand on the Ins stillness we receive going outside, being out in nature, effectively taking your mind away from, as you said, you know, just to step away from the desk, slowdown. But that thing about what's my human benefit. So to actually relate to that. You're helping your clients go through that journey, so they're getting it. They're slowly understanding and it takes them an hour and 20 min or so for the light bulb to go on and the curtains to open and suddenly it's revealed.

31:04 - Phil Rose
And I just got this amazing picture, mine that they've done that. But I should, man, it's a bit of a journey after that as well, because they've now got to look at, okay, now how do I convey that message, How do I craft the words, way you come into in terms of what is it that's there? And I think There must be some magic you bring to that. So you talked about your superpower and before this you were telling me about your favorite book. And I really I want to de clear because when you say this now it's all making sense to me because that favorite and we'll talk about that in a 2nd, talks about that main character and what that character can do, and as a children's book I think there's a lot to learn from it.

31:42 - Phil Rose
Because of what this person does in there, and I think that's what I'm hearing. You do a lot with your clients. The Big Reveal, What is your favorite book you're going to talk about and why.

31:54 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
My favorite book and it's a book that I studied at degree level, so I did my dissertation on this book as well. Is the Bfg by Roald who I re, I realize Roald belonged to his era and these days he is quite a controversial author.

32:09 - Phil Rose
Yes.

32:11 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
but the thing that I love about the Bfg is that he sees dreams He sees them and he hears them. He knows the power of dreams. He knows the power that by breathing these dreams into other people, how he can affect their behavior and how he can delight them. He also knows the powers the power of I think they're called the Trole Thumpers. They're they're bad dreams, The the Black and purple dreams that thrash around in the jar. He knows the power that they have as well. And he keeps very guarded with them.

32:50 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
He keeps them um, very tightly screwed up in in jars. So he he knows that to unleash those is a really bad thing. But his delight. And he puts himself at risk every night going out with these dreams. I believe in that, I really believe in that, and as a ten year old child, I believed in that, and I still believe in it now. So.

33:14 - Phil Rose
And and you know, as you, as you rationalize it now isn't it, we get e racial feeling because whether you read the Bfg or not and if you have read it'll a of sensee. If you haven't read it, you probably need to go and read it now.

33:24 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Eating.

33:25 - Phil Rose
As you said, Roo Deal can be a controversial character. I've been looking in reading Rood for 20 years, fey with my children, probably not for the last few years, but I think there's some real power there. But the bit there is, he sees and hears dreams, and as businesss owners, as people, we all have those dreams. Often we put our dreams aside. To go and do something else, though. And it's interesting, isn't it, when talk about purpose I felt bit emotional welling up. And we now and think about that in terms of that, that dream of what we really want.

33:57 - Phil Rose
We're often constrained by our trouble thumpers or whatever is there, that word, the bad dreams. So we put the lid back on our dreams. Rather than let the lid off and letting it fly, and you know, from your perspective, you know, the Bfg listened. He had his patching net to capture the dreams and he had his trumpet to suck the dream out. But there's really something there, isn't it? There's a ten year old. You believe in it, and If I think about that, I know there's no ten year olds listening to this podcast, but all of the people I'm that are listening to the podcasts, I believe it wants ten year olds and therefore had a dream.

34:36 - Phil Rose
I wonder what you'd say to them with your Bfg head on and your writers head right now about what they could or could.

34:46 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
I'm reading Glennon Doyle at the moment, her book contained, and in it she asks the question, who were you? Something, that is, who were you when you were ten years old, before someone told you who you had to be? That's a very powerful question. Stories about We should use our talents, what our bodies should look like, what our lives should look like, the things that we should own, the people that we should have in our lives. We have all of these stories and um, I have one. One client who helps people, as she says, who've put their ladder up against the wrong wall, actually accepting that you've put your ladder up against wrong.

35:46 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Huge thing. Morph. So the kites that I work with, they're messaging morphs, the people that they work with, their ideal client base, their key services, they morph over time as people discover. It's giving them the bravery though to go actually. Do you know what you can climb down from that ladder? We can take the ladder and we can put it up against an the wall. That's fine. So I've helped people to Start podcasts. And that's the great thing. That's the amazing thing about it is that somebody can go or that's not me, I don't really want to do that.

36:24 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
And you go on, give it a go, give it a try. And then you end up with a client whose is taken on a life of its own and listen to your content or read your content, can follow the dots back to you. You can't follow the dots out to them. You have no one. Idea where your content is going and who it's going to benefit.

36:46 - Phil Rose
Yep.

36:50 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
I guesss kind of what I'm saying is it's always a journey, there's always things flow and move and they generate other ideas as you go. So nothing is ever static. So if you believe you are one thing. Then question that belief. Perhaps you're not perhaps you something else.

37:12 - Phil Rose
I love that, and I love that. I love that Intensity, know, may have the Ladd up against the wrong wall. And it's sometimes hard to come down because you're not sure what coming down is going to be like, and then you're not sure which ladder. Wish we would be your ladder up, back up against but the point there. And I come back to that untaken before. Someone told you who you have to be. That's quite It is,

37:43 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
That's hugely powerful,

37:44 - Phil Rose
isn't it? I think that, I think that's real paradigm. You, it's brought to his mind to think about it. I think it is real, really powerful and I think We all, as human beings, do what we do. Sometimes we need to just sit back and question Are we doing what we are born to do? You know, that comes back the word purpose. Do you find your purpose, or does your purpose find you? And actually if you get back to that root of what we do, a lot of people do get backed in just going up that ladder and they put the lader up against F and they just don't to come back down again 'cause the view from the ladder is pretty good, but they just don't realize, as Steve and Kovi once said, we're in the wrong jungle.

38:29 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Yes.

38:31 - Phil Rose
And actually we need to understand, okay, let's go back to the other jungle, let's work out where we are. I think that's quite a powerful piece. We're going to come to the end of this conversation in a minute, and there's so much more, I can come back to it. And I think there's two things that just come to my mind. When you're talking about traction marketing area, you said to Para or you said there's two things you need to give people and you said one is practical takeaways and the other one is a feeling and I think you've given some practical tips already in terms of the things you can do, slow down, unsend, your human benefit.

39:03 - Phil Rose
But also for me, certainly you've given a bit of emotional feeling as well, just in some of those words, so it's quite interesting. Whether listens good, I don't know, but I've got it straight away and that practical De but that emotional feeling right away. So let's just think about things. And I said to you before and I pre warned you some of these questions. I m so What do you know Amanda fer? Now that you wish you'd known when you were younger or earlier, what do you wish you'd known?

39:30 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Well, I know I said to you earlier, that fear of lack brought me to a, a place of pretty severe lack that's happened to me I don't know how many times in my life. A spirit of abundance, hope, this trust feeling of You've got this you can't lose. Go and do it. So fear of lack brought me to lack. A feeling, a spirit of abundance and hope, brought me to an abundant place. Particularly I keep saying this over and over again to my daughter, who's going through her Gcse mock at the moment. You can't fail.

40:21 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
You cannot fail. You can't fail. If you have opportunities for learning. So if you don't meet a grade somewhere and then you're given pointers or sign posts to new learning, great grasp for them, but you not failed,

40:37 - Phil Rose
hey.

40:38 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
fails. It's, it's so it, it comes down to bravery and it comes down to courage again and it comes to reach inside and being authentic. But my fear of lack led me to lack massive lesson in my life. Abundance and faith hass brought me to a place of abundance and faith. So.

41:02 - Phil Rose
That's amazing. And and and and Enabled you to sense that one was one path, but you need a different road. Did How did you move from lack to abundance?

41:16 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
I had to try something different.

41:19 - Phil Rose
Okay,

41:19 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Nothing was working.

41:20 - Phil Rose
because it wasn't working, Yeah,

41:22 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
It was working.

41:23 - Phil Rose
if, if what you're doing isn't working, try so different, as simple as that, Okay,

41:26 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Fri is something different.

41:27 - Phil Rose
yeah.

41:28 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Also, I've done a great deal of reading. I'm massively indebted to the books that I've read by Gabrielle Bernstein, the books that I've read by Meghan Waterson, now Glenn and Doyle, there's, there's uh, I, I have an entire library of books that I've read. It's all about getting your good goggles on. What are you reading? What are you putting in your head? I've just finished reading a book by Gabel Matte about when the body says no and about how our feelings and the the things that we look at are not just Physiologically in our brains, they're in our emotions, they, they affect our, our bodies at a cellular level.

42:10 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
That's your muscles, your bones, everything. So what is there about putting your good googles on, which improves your health, your outlook? It's like your reprogramming your body. And I buy extension as a writer. Then I help other people to put this good stuff out there so that they're encoding other people's bodies and and then suddenly we're kind of making everything better for everyone. So yes, that's that,

42:36 - Phil Rose
I love that,

42:36 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
that's my approach, that's my take.

42:39 - Phil Rose
I love that. And actually there's a real connection there, isn't it, between the bit that we should known earlier was fear of lack rest the abundance mindset. And then this view of, you know, you've been out reading, you read round different authors and you've known if you there and, and we'll include those in the podcast show notes. So people who want to go and look at some of those books because I think there's other things there and, but the key, key bit there is, you know, you can do it.

43:03 - Phil Rose
So one final question and That final question is you can go back now and tell that younger Amanda one thing, what is that one thing you gonna tell Amanda?

43:15 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
You've got this. You can't lose. Your life is gonna take you to depths you could not imagine, but you still got this.

43:31 - Phil Rose
I think that's all. Hating this life's going to t take you to depths you can't imagine.

43:36 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
But you still got this?

43:38 - Phil Rose
Love it, so love it, thank you. How would people find you know I know where to find you because I talk to you every Monday, so how would people find you?

43:47 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
come in book, please book a chat with me, via my website. It's very easy to book a a free coffee and chat with me. My website is www.liftcopywriting.co.Uk. That's by far the easiest way to come along and look a chat. We can talk about anything, cake, the weather, gardening, anything. Just come along,

44:10 - Phil Rose
it.

44:10 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
book a chat for half an hour and we'll see where we go. It's good.

44:13 - Phil Rose
Wonderful sorry, liftcopywriting.co.Uk - Go book a chat, have a conversation and uh, and see where it might go. you never know where this attraction might go? But either way you have a conversation would leave you with a practical tip and emotional feeling at the end of it, which is all you need.

44:26 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Yes, absolutely, absolutely,

44:27 - Phil Rose
Amanda Thank you. It's been a pleasure talking to you and I litle having our conversations on Monday mornings,

44:29 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
thank you. You we will.

44:32 - Phil Rose
even more in that case about where we can do some more. So yeah, thank you. Amanda Thank you very much,

44:37 - Amanda Fearn, Copywriter and Coach
Thank you.

44:45 - Phil Rose
thank you.